Curse

drkn · Nov 21, 2010, 09:48 PM // 21:48

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2. Gwen's also nineteen, as in, not an adult. She's not going to react the same way as an adult would.

She's perceived as mature and responsible enough to lead the Ebon Vanguard. Don't forget that she's the one to forge Ebonhawke, or so the rumors say. 'Gwen the Goremonger'.

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I dislike Gwen, a lot. Especially her attitude toward Pyre when they first meet.

Ye, this too. But i can, somehow, understand her attitude then. I do not understand and can't stand the post-EotN/post-UW/post-WiK Gwen, and don't really get why she was developed that way.
Let me say that i haven't expected the 'proposal dialogue' to be played out that way after those:

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Gwen: "He can't be everywhere. By helping her, he's hurting me."
Gwen: "But look at him right now. He looks kind of happy, doesn't he? Did we ever look like that?"
Gwen: "How could we have? I was always so busy pushing him away..."
...
Gwen: "Is this the kind of person I want to be? Shutting myself off and being afraid to expose my feelings. Maybe happiness is better than feeling nothing at all. Maybe it's worth the pain."
Gwen: "If he can change, then maybe...maybe I can change, too."
...
[the whole 'sweet fool' part]

Her initial response to the proposal ('you impossible idiot!'; 'yes, fine, yes, i will marry you' - here puppy, fine, have your bone) is what destroyed her in my eyes.

On a good side, the wedding will make her get out of HoM for a while.

RedStar · Nov 21, 2010, 10:06 PM // 22:06

You should have quoted more :

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So... yes. Fine, yes. I'll marry you. Someone has to take care of you. I don't...ever want you disappearing on me like that again.

See, it's not like "here doggy I'm giving you your treat" it's more like she doesn't want to feel too romantic "I say yes to make it seem like it's because you need me, but in the end I also need you".

I actually liked the dialogue between Gwen and Sarah.

I mean someday Gwen has to stop being "mean" toward everyone and start opening her heart to people. She can't have a kid and build a city that will attract a lot of people by being the "I'm-under-the-effect-of-perpetual-period"-woman.
(Of course it's not only one event that is going to change her attitude. She's only 19 so she has a lot of time to change).

Deviant Angel · Nov 21, 2010, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Gwen has been through a lot and it's not that shocking that she's got a prickly personality. It doesn't mean she's unfit for marriage or undeserving of love. Some people just have trouble letting the friendly and playful side out after they have been through something traumatic. She may feel vulurable or weak when she does that.

It sounds like she found someone that loves her for who she is under the prickly exterior, even if he doesn't get to see it all the time. I don't think it makes him a fool. Who knows, maybe she will soften up a bit? I'm kinda shocked she hasn't yet, but I guess some nuts are tougher to crack.

If my story was unfolding like that, the prickly armor would probably instantly go away.

AngelWJedi · Nov 21, 2010, 10:42 PM // 22:42

i think if anet had put some more lore in between the hunt, wik and this i bet more people would like gwen. and gwen would have gotten better. i think in time gwen will be less snippy. but hey i know people in rl that act like that with their partners and they are still happly married.

Isfit · Nov 21, 2010, 10:49 PM // 22:49

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Originally Posted by Sytherek

From what I see in the other threads, it looks like many people (like me) think Thackeray should have run off with Miku, leaving Gwen to continue her shrewish existence at the Eye of the North.

After talking about how she needs to grow and change... well, to avoid spoilers, I'll just say that her response to Thackeray's proposal is childish and rude -- and a bit domineering.

On the other hand, I run her as a Domination Mesmer, so...

As it is, I regret helping Thackeray go "home" -- he deserves better than the Shrew of the North.

Chibi-Gwen was always the best and will be the best.
How she owned everyone with her little flute <3

Pre-searing Gwen was a kid, nothing more nothing less, but the fact that she remained unspoken of after the searing made her mysterious.

Post-searing Ebon Vanguard Gwen is just a whiny little bitch that you would to just send to the moon so she never comes back.

Miku, me being a big manga and anime fan, and her being obviously a reference to aforementioned genres, is one of my most favorite "new" characters. Let's see how she turns out in the subsequent plotline - we did not really get to know her. Nevertheless she has great potential.

Keiran though is an idiot for trying to court Gwen and he deserves what he gets, Miku deserves better.

So no I can not agree, Miku is a far too interesting and independant character to end up with a lousy idiot like Thackeray.

RedStar · Nov 21, 2010, 11:10 PM // 23:10

You guys seem to forget something : Keiran fell in love with the "old" Gwen.

He doesn't want her to be all "Oh Keiran I missed you, I love you, I need you, kiss me ! Let's go run barefoot in the wild and trow snowballs at each other" he just want her to open her heart a little more, not to drastically change her personality.

Concerning Miku : we know absolutely nothing about her except that she's less snippy than Gwen. And she doesn't seem to be looking for love.

Xiaquin · Nov 21, 2010, 11:12 PM // 23:12

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Originally Posted by drkn

She's perceived as mature and responsible enough to lead the Ebon Vanguard. Don't forget that she's the one to forge Ebonhawke, or so the rumors say. 'Gwen the Goremonger'.

Gwen has determination out of revenge against the charr, that doesn't mean she's mature. Lots of brave fighters are pretty young, but ask any "old" war veteran that served with some and they will tell you they are just kids.

I'd say she's acting like the teenager she is. Dislike it if you want, but, she is what she is and that's what I love.

drkn · Nov 21, 2010, 11:39 PM // 23:39

So Langmar was stupid enough to leave Vanguard's leadership in hands of a teenager with emotional problems? Like there were no better suited people to be left in charge...

RedStar · Nov 21, 2010, 11:46 PM // 23:46

I almost find it normal that Gwen was designated leader : she knows her priorities and doesn't listen to her feelings, except anger which can sometimes cause problems.

Plus she lived as a slave for some years so she was inside the enemy's base, so she has some ideas about their culture and a better understanding of their ways than a soldier that has only saw a Charr as a brainless monster.

Xiaquin · Nov 21, 2010, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

So Langmar was stupid enough to leave Vanguard's leadership in hands of a teenager with emotional problems? Like there were no better suited people to be left in charge...

She's an outstanding soldier, knows the charr well and is tough enough to demand respect, so yes, I would have made the same decision.

RedDog91 · Nov 22, 2010, 12:13 AM // 00:13

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Originally Posted by drkn

So Langmar was stupid enough to leave Vanguard's leadership in hands of a teenager with emotional problems? Like there were no better suited people to be left in charge...

Perhaps a sole hero who has saved the world 4 times...?

mrmango · Nov 22, 2010, 01:58 AM // 01:58

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Originally Posted by RedStar

I almost find it normal that Gwen was designated leader : she knows her priorities and doesn't listen to her feelings, except anger which can sometimes cause problems.

Plus she lived as a slave for some years so she was inside the enemy's base, so she has some ideas about their culture and a better understanding of their ways than a soldier that has only saw a Charr as a brainless monster.

But that's how Gwen sees them, barely accepting Pyre at the end of GW:EN.

Dusk_ · Nov 22, 2010, 01:58 AM // 01:58

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Originally Posted by RedDog91

Perhaps a sole hero who has saved the world 4 times...?

Wouldn't be very smart to leave command of an entire military force who ups and leaves to other countries (or continents) at the drop of a hat.

There's a reason why Heroes have so much trouble getting jobs - you can count on them to save the world, but God knows where they are when you need the paperwork filed.

Coraline Jones · Nov 22, 2010, 03:57 AM // 03:57

I think that it goes without saying that Gwen's character has some of the worst character "development" in the game.

The story doesn't make any sense anyway. When somebody really cares about something then they make a strong effort to do something about it. If it was somebody important to you, like a family member, and they went missing, then you'd be out there looking for them. You wouldn't just dole out the responsibility to your best friend while you sat at home wringing your hands.

I have no idea why the quest wasn't written so Gwen was a mandatory hero in your party to look for clues, and along the way you'd have some dialogue or plot that would show growth in her character and make her character look more believable. I mean, right now the whole "romance" storyline is nothing but you running all over Tyria looking for weird old relics. Then you get these "visions" and Gwen has some bizarre soliloquies afterwards. This is seriously how ArenaNet wanted to make people empathize with their characters?

drkn · Nov 22, 2010, 06:51 AM // 06:51

Still, Gwen is one of the youngest soldiers of the Vanguard, with, probably, the least field experience before we got her out of HoM to look for the missing soldiers. She's far from being adult, but mature enough to lead people already, many of them older and wiser than she is. Leading the Vanguard isn't only fighting off the Charr in guerilla operations...

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Perhaps a sole hero who has saved the world 4 times...?

I think that, lore-wise, the PC meets Gwen after Nightfall - all in all, when NF campaign's events start, Gwen is 15 years old, while, according to the official wiki, she escaped Charr's captive when she was 17.
Though we know that she, in some mysterious ways, gained Langmar's trust and became a second in command within a year after she joined the Vanguard (so, shouldn't she get her version of TNTF after becoming the leader? ;p), those pieces just don't fit.
e: Just realised you meant the PC. Technically, the PC isn't even a member of the Vanguard afaik.

Still, it's not that much about the original character of Gwen, it's more about the whole post-EotN development.

IlikeGW · Nov 22, 2010, 02:54 PM // 14:54

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Originally Posted by RedDog91

Perhaps a sole hero who has saved the world 4 times...?

This is what I hate most about GW storytelling. We should have a role that matters, instead it's like we're on a ride at Disney World watching the lore characters doing something different in different places, and we're just saving the world to watch these characters carry out their mundane lives? To me it's not that great of an incentive. I want to see Cantha treat us like one of the most important military leaders in the world, with a superstar track record of success... Ok, maybe not that much of the game kissing up to us but maybe some bones here and there that show we even exist. Instead all we get is the perpetual revolving quest window. "Thanks! Also could you go do this, you seem easily enslaved into menial jobs for people who haven't done you any favors, so I had to ask."

Xiaquin · Nov 22, 2010, 05:27 PM // 17:27

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Originally Posted by Coraline Jones

The story doesn't make any sense anyway. When somebody really cares about something then they make a strong effort to do something about it. If it was somebody important to you, like a family member, and they went missing, then you'd be out there looking for them. You wouldn't just dole out the responsibility to your best friend while you sat at home wringing your hands

Gwen was put in charge of the Vanguard, she can't be out with us (lore-wise) any more than Langmar could have left to adventure with us. Being the Vanguard was without two of the best they have/had, if Gwen were to leave, arguably it would fall into disarray.

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Originally Posted by IlikeGW

/snip

That's just about how every game treats the "hero", I don't see how this is unique to GW. In GW2 we will have recognition.

Arato · Nov 22, 2010, 05:35 PM // 17:35

I think Keiran should have ran off with Miku myself too.. but since he didn't and decided to become a submissive male to a domineering female when he could have had someone he worked as a TEAM with..

Well since Miku's still available it's a shame my toon can't run off with her, his loss eh?

New Buddha · Nov 22, 2010, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Man conquers the world, Woman conquers the man.

...only because we let them....guess that is what you call love.

Arato · Nov 22, 2010, 06:17 PM // 18:17

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Originally Posted by drkn

While i share your sentiment towards Gwen, i hate her as the in-game character she became. I played all the games in chronological order, but then, later, used Gwen as a hero a lot as well. I remember her dancing in that funny cape until she fell over. I like her story, but not her character.
It's not only limited to her attitude towards Thackeray for the whole time. I remember this cinematic to be the first moment when i started to dislike her, only to strengthen that feeling.

I used to like Gwen myself, I mean, I knew her as a little girl and was so worried about her when she disappeared in the searing, I thought it was tragic that the Charr had killed the poor child. Then I'm reunited with her and she's a beautiful woman now, but she's been through a lot of bad things. I tried my best to cheer her up, showing her things that reminded her of what we were like when she was young, following me around on my adventures, gifts I gave her, a gift she gave me that I held onto for years and years when she called me her favorite person in the whole world (next to her mommy of course). I thought I started making progress, but she still had a lot of emotional problems, a little part of me thought, maybe after all this was over, we could go back and make Ascalon the way it used to be again, and be happy together. One of her fellow soldiers even gave me another idea on how to cheer her up, with a special wintersday present! After I gave it to her though, he took all the credit, and started making advances on her right in front of me!

I watched him try and fail, and at first, I thought he got shot down in flames and she was mine for sure... but then, I started watching how she treated him, and thought, that emotional baggage is never going to go away, and any ties to her past, such as me, won't help, maybe she did need someone new.. and plus, she'd changed, and her attitude put me off. So I gave up on her myself. I feel bad for Keiran chasing after her, even if he did stab me in the back at first. Oh well I'll let him pick his poison..

While no, I don't seriously get into the in game romance aside from any rp aspects.. they do say your GW2 character is your GW character's descendent.. so.. as scary as any future charr/asura/sylvari progeny may be.. you gotta hook it up with someone right?